S4E3 | Lessons From a Therapist: What Happens When Black Women Overcompensate for Their Partners? w/ Dr. Nikki Coleman

Building onto last week’s episode, in this interview we discuss Dr. Nikki Coleman’s experiences doing couples therapy. Oftentimes she witnesses Black women overcompensating for their male partners’ lack of empathy, accountability, emotional intelligence, etc. We talk about the toll this takes on both women and men as well as what this could mean for your intimate connections. 

Guest: Dr. Nikki Coleman

Website: drnikkiknows.com

Twitter and IG: @drnikkiknows

TikTok: @drnikkisextherapist

Transcript:

Kayla: Okay today, our guest is Dr. Nikki Coleman, who is a licensed psychologist, sex self-confidence coach, a public speaker and racial equity consultant. How are you Dr. Coleman?

Dr. Nikki: I’m doing so well, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited for this conversation.

Kayla: Yes, I was excited to have you. I always start out talking about some background of the guests. So can you give us some background on, that’s quite a list of things that you are. So can you give us some background on how you got into some of those things?

Dr. Nikki: Sure. So I am a counseling psychologist by training. I have been a counseling psychologist for, I graduated in 2002, so I always, oh yeah. So 20 years. So I’ve been a counseling psychology for 20 years I got licensed in the state of Texas where I reside in 2008. I was a faculty member for the majority of my career.

Probably across institutions, around 17 years of being a faculty member, was promoted to associate professor, had tenure and the whole thing. And then 2019 sort of acknowledged yeah, burnout is real. I’m done with this part of the, of my career. I’m ready to transition to do something different. I transitioned out into the, healthcare setting and did some DEI work, and realized that my sort of ethics and, professional mission around racial equity and DEI weren’t always aligning, particularly in that environment that I was working in. And then 2021, I fully became a full-time entrepreneur. And so I’ve always worn one or more of the hats that you mentioned in some way, shape or form. So as an academic, I still saw clients. So I had a tiny private practice. Most of the classes that I taught were training, other psychologists. So I taught a lot of the practicum and applied courses. And then my research was around black women’s sexuality, in particular influences around media, and, sexual identity and sort of looking at sexuality from a more normative perspective. And so now kind of all the pieces go together and I am a licensed psychologist. I am PSYPACT credential. So that means I have a what’s called an E passport.

So I can see clients through virtual sessions and about 20, 23 other states besides the state of Texas. And my specialty is around particularly black folks, sexual relational wellness. And, and I’m particularly, biased in working with black women around releasing internalized sex shame, having best sex of their lives, centering pleasure in their lives.

So those are all the things that I do. And then of, of course, like racial equity is always sort of central to what I do. So I do some work with, small to mid-size organizations around black mental wellness in the workplace or, racial equity, training and consultation. So it’s a lot, but it all makes sense.

Kayla: Okay. Very nice. no, yeah, it does. I was listening and I kind of was seeing some of myself in that. I, went to grad school too. I have a PhD, but I, I reached burnout way before I even got into like a professorship. I left academia. So , 

Dr. Nikki: Yeah, yeah, 

Kayla: I’m trying to figure out how to parlay my, like academic, my love for research and learning and knowledge and things like that into working for myself.

So listening to that, it kind of gives me a little hope because you’ve been able to do it. So, yeah, and my research interests were also around black women. I did black women’s experiences of sexual violence on college campuses and the differences in their needs and the needs of non-black women and the disparities between the treatment, if they did decide to come forward.

So yeah, also very interested in, you know, issues that black women experience. And now I have a podcast.

Dr. Nikki: Yes. Awesome podcast.

Kayla: I came across you because you have a TikTok. And you made a TikTok that made some waves. I saw it on Twitter. Actually. Somebody brought it over from TikTok to Twitter and, I reached out to you because it, it got, a decent amount of attention and I’m gonna insert the audio of the TikTok when I go back and edit this.

But. You were basically talking about how, overwhelming the emotional labor of doing couples therapy with heterosexual couples can be due to an imbalance in emotional intelligence, empathy, compassion, responsiveness, accountability, those sorts of things. And usually with the men being the ones, who show less of these things in a heterosexual dynamic.

So. I wanted to ask, of course you can’t tell people’s specific business, but can you give some general examples of the type of labor you see black women doing, to compensate for this like imbalance in the dynamic?

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. that, that was such a, just, it caught me on guard. Right? Because I get that the TikTok account. I have an Instagram, platform. I get, like, it goes out to the world. That’s the job. But I don’t think about that when I’m recording it. And that particular, that particular TikTok really came from this very authentic place.

It was at the end of my therapy work week. And I was just sort of reflecting on, just the week. And I was like, you know what? I think this is relevant. I think people need to hear this. And I did not expect, I didn’t even know that it had gotten picked up on Twitter until like a friend of mine. Actually one of my podcast hosts, I have a podcast, with some other black psychologists called The Break Room and one of them was like, “Sis, you blowing up on Twitter.”

And I was like, what? It’s like, this is on Twitter and people have things to say about it. And so that really reinforced for me, this is a real experience. It’s not just the folks that I see in my practice. It’s not just my experience, but this is really resonating with folks. And I think part of what made it so powerful is that I named something that happens all the time and that we just sort of take for granted. So a lot of the things that I was talking about and that I see is, are really sort of subtle, but coming from, one of the ways that I think about it immediately is that Destiny’s child song cater to you right? 

Where they’re thinking about all the things the man has gone through during the day. Right? Checking in on him and getting his temperature to see if he had a good day or a bad day and what they need to do in response to regulating his mood. Right? So I see a lot of that happening very, very early on in the dating process. And it’s, so it happened so normatively that I think we have, really socialized ourselves conditioned ourselves to think about it as just part of dating. This is just what you do. But the issue is when you do that for a prolonged period of time, that’s where that sort of the burden of that labor comes around.

Right? So I just think women are socialized from an early age to be more conversant about their feelings to one, to be able to acknowledge that they have emotions and their emotions influence their, their thinking, their choices, their behavior. Two that they have a greater access to a wider range of emotions. So men typically are socialized, and I see this reflected a lot as being able to sort of, stay in the box of either, mad or cool, or chill, there’s like two, two modes. And so women doing the emotional labor, trying to color in the nuances between those things. And being detectives to try to figure out what the bad is.

Is it sad, bad, or is it mad, bad or is his feelings hurt? Is it at work? Like all of that stuff and then the issue really comes in where it’s one thing to sort of negotiate that and navigate that with your partner about the external stuff. But when you need him to turn on to be able to be a whole contributing member, partnership, right?

The labor that you do and caring for him and all those other spaces then becomes additionally burdening when you’re trying to articulate your own emotions, your own needs. Be able to sort of wrestle with those, be unclear about those and talk those through and you don’t get that receptivity back. Those are some of the things that I see. And then inability to tolerate discomfort. That, it’s easy to get into victim blaming or, or blaming period or pointing fingers. Right? The inability, inability to sort of sit in discomfort of maybe having made a misstep or making a mistake or not hearing what, what needed to be heard.

And they’re being defensiveness about that. And so then the woman has to negotiate that defensiveness. So I could talk on and on, on, but it’s like layers and layers and layers that I think if it were one or isolated here or there, or only in one direction it might be more manageable, but I think what happens is, the more that the woman compensates in that way, the less the man is required to raise up. To struggle to build the skills. And so that creates like a greater and greater and greater divide.

Kayla: A couple things you said during that was interesting. I think it’s very interesting that it’s always, like, there’s a joke about how women aren’t good communicators. They never know how to say, you know, what’s wrong or why they’re mad and men are having to do the guesswork about it.

But according to your experiences, it’s women that are having to figure out and play detective about their feelings and things like that. So that’s interesting. I forgot what the other thing was, but there was something else maybe it’ll come back. I wanted to ask, what are the types of long term effects or types of problems that this can cause in relationships?

Mm-hmm, resentment is first, like resentment on, on behalf of the woman. And then both parties in different ways, but both parties feeling more and more disconnected and feeling isolated. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nikki: And the other thing is, and with that, I should say another layer of that, that I think shows up, is that the longer that happens, the greater the disconnect and the distress and the harder it is to come back to connection and to be able to resolve it.The sex self-confidence part, I see a lot of it showing up in women’s lowered sex drive. And I’m happy to talk about that more, but that, I think that there are sort of complicated ways that that’s being influenced by that dynamic. And then that in and of itself can cause distress in the relationship. I still think we have a lot, lot, lot, lot of labor imbalance, in in heterosexual households and particularly around parenting. And so women are doing additional labor with regard to maintaining the household and caring for children and there’s. Emotional weight attached to that. And so, that’s an additional outcome that I see, just general frustration, right? Like not having the ability to successfully navigate arguments or navigate disagreements. So that now you’re not really having a disagreement about this little thing in the moment. It is really compounded by all the other things.

And so oftentimes sometimes like increasing discord overall, and that makes it not a happy household to live in. And then all of these things really impact your individual mental well-being, right?

Dr. Nikki: So increased anxiety, increased depression. The worst thing in the world is to feel lonely and be in a relationship. That has a really, bad impact on your mental wellbeing. Sometimes even a sense of, of self-esteem. And, and I’m talking about these sort of dynamics in a heterosexual framework and I get that I’m making generalizations. I wanna acknowledge, like I see those outcomes on both partners, but the way it shows up is so very different. And that disconnect and how it shows up, I think, is what I was really trying to get at.

Kayla: Mm-hmm, okay. And yeah. yeah. Well, can you say a little bit more about the differences in how it shows up?

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. So I think like, men in, in the couple can feel sad and depressed and insecure and have their self worth question, but not have the legitimate tools or capacity to articulate that. And so it, it shows up as being defensive or shows up as going out more and being more away from the home or showing up as being more critical of their partner. And not that, not that we can make excuses for that behavior, but I think part of my work as the therapist, right, is to help sort of unpack and think about what is driving this behavior. And to be able to help both parties see, you’re really hurting in the same way around the same thing, but how you are showing each other that hurt not only looks different, but also is impacting your ability to work through it and resolve it.

Kayla: That makes sense. As a therapist, you talked about how overwhelming it can be for you to do the emotional labor involved in watching the dynamics between these couples. So can you say more about that? What does it, what does that feel like for you?

Dr. Nikki: Yeah, I think this is the part of the TikTok that got a lot of people riled up. I got a lot of comments, like you’re a therapist, how you set those, that be what kind of professional are you?

Kayla: You know, I, the more arrogant side of me is like you have 20, 20 plus years of doing psychotherapy with people across the racial, ethnic spectrum, the gender spectrum, and age spectrum, you know, I’ve worked with kids all the way to elder folks . Folks that are ex-nuns to folks that are struggling with sex addiction. Like once you do all of that, then you can come talk to me about about my struggles. Right. Receipts. 

Dr. Nikki: Yeah, I got receipts. So there still is a lot of people that just really don’t know what therapy is. And quite honestly, there’s a lot of people that don’t know what good therapy looks like. And so I’m very clear that in my role as a therapist, I have a responsibility to one, be aware of how I am responding and reacting to my clients. And then understand how that is influencing and impacting our working relationship. So it’s both data for me and it’s also my responsibility to make sure that my, my reactions my biases, and we all have them, that’s just real, are not unduly influencing the client that I’m serving. And particularly with couples, my responsibility is to the unit. So it does not mean that one or the other person isn’t, differently accountable or sometimes being a bad actor. But the reality is in most relationships, both parties are contributing something. And so my responsibility as the therapist is to help look at what are the things that everybody is contributing, right?

What are the parties contributing and not attribute blame. So couple’s therapy is two people in individual therapy at the same time. Couple’s therapy is therapy around the relationship dynamics. So to break it down, if I come in and I’m, I’m the therapist and I’m seeing the couple and I start, I, I see these deficits in the man and I start working with him, him, him, well, the outcome is that he’s gonna feel attacked.

He’s gonna feel isolated. He’s gonna feel villainized. And the other thing is, the woman is gonna feel, “Oh, I’m off the hook. I know I’m right. You just need to change. And then everything will be good.” And the reality is that’s just not, it’s not that simple. And the couple as a unit is better served in their ability to be a healthy whole functional unit when they come to that understanding through the work that I do with them. So I don’t tell my clients, you need to do this. You need to do that. This is, this is what’s wrong. This is what’s right. I, I reflect back to them what I’m observing. Oftentimes I’m sort of the referee of like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let’s give such and such air time. Let’s, let’s hear it out. Oftentimes I’m also playing, sort of interpreter, right?

Like, hey, I hear him saying, blah, blah, blah, blah. Do you hear it in that way? Is that what you intended? Is there another way that you would, you need to hear this? So I’m doing a lot of work talking about all the unsaid things that are in the room that are in the dynamic that are causing the disruption. And so it would be inappropriate for me to sort of hone in on one partner or the other. And I think a lot of people maybe missed that or have never been in couples therapy or, you know, didn’t have a conception of it in that way. And I know a lot of the, the men, were commenting that it seemed like I was, you know, attacking or denigrating black men. And I’m sure we could get into that in a second, but, one last thing that I,

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a whole conversation. Right. And the other part about it is that you can’t get into in like a 60 second TikTok is like, people come to work with me for a reason. I don’t take insurance. I’m private pay only. And so it’s not like they just got matched with me. Oftentimes people have seen me on TikTok or Instagram, or maybe they’ve seen me do a presentation somewhere and they reach out. And so when I take on couples, I have the consultation with the couple, both parties are in the conversation from the beginning. I’ve had women call sometimes and say, I wanna do couples therapy.

Okay. Is your partner there? No. Well then we can’t talk, right? Like, cause you can’t do couples therapy as an individual. And so people are clear about my approach my framework, how I will work with them, I ask questions. I vet them, they are vetting me. And so once we decide to work together, there’s a lot of understanding about what the work is. And then the one last piece that I think is also really important is, just because you are in couples therapy doesn’t mean that one or both parties isn’t also in individual therapy. That sometimes the, the, the result of the couples therapy is to highlight, ah, actually there’s a lot of unresolved trauma here and, and you are gonna be better served by going to find your own individual therapist and working around that. And that is going to be reinforced and supported here in this couple’s work, but it is different than…  

Kayla: Mm. Okay, good. So I, I wanna you said a lot. And so I have a, a question in regards to specifically, you said that, everybody’s bringing something to like the relationship into the issues that they’re having in the relationship. We kind of know that a lot of the ways that, men are socialized, doesn’t allow them to access emotions and patriarchy and all that stuff.

But I’m wondering if, since you say that everybody brings something to the issues and to the, to the relationships. Do you ever experience like pushback from women, or, or do they ever have, is it ever challenging for them to kind of see what they may be bringing to the issues or, anything like that? Can you speak to that? Does that make sense?

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. I think the common conversation is the like, men are bad. Women are good. Right? We could, we, we could dress it up in a lot of different ways, but that’s sort of what it gets distilled down to. Right? Like the issues, the problems in heterosexual relationships are with men, right, and toxic masculinity or limited masculinity and blah, blah, blah, blah. And all of that is real and true. And we, we are a collective. So on the other side, I work with women who are an individual, right? And a lot of that work is oftentimes around how are you showing up for yourself? How are you advocating for yourself? Are you even aware of what you want or need? And is there room for you to talk about that in this relationship or in your ideal relationship? So I think that there is work to be done around women being more accountable for being transparent at the outset, being more accountable for knowing what they want and how they want to be cared for and attended to, and not, not reinforcing the, the quote unquote bad behavior by settling or not commenting.

And I think that that happens so much, especially in married, relationships. You have just bottled shit up for the X number of years that you dated. And now that you’re married, you have this really crazy expectation that all of a sudden the stakes are higher or expectations are different. And so all of a sudden he’s supposed to meet some bar that he didn’t even know he was trying to reach cause for the past X number of years or months, you never said anything. So that’s the piece around the accountability. So I’ll give an example. Recently, I was working with a couple. and the woman partner was expressing some insecurities. And I asked her, “Well, what do you need differently from your partner around this?” And she said, “I don’t really think there’s anything that he could do.” And I said, “Really, there’s nothing he can do to help you with this insecurity that you’re experiencing.” She was like, No. I mean, I’ve talked to him about it, he’s aware. And you know, he tells me that there’s no need for me to feel that way, but I said, I don’t know what more he could do.” So I said, “Let me ask the question in the inverse. Is there something he could start doing to contribute to you feeling less loved and less cared for in this relationship?” And she said, “Oh yeah, absolutely.” And I said, “So if you can think of that, then you can also think of the inverse. That there are likely ways that he can meet your needs in a different or better way, but you haven’t had the space or opportunity to even think about asking for that to even be aware that you could demand more.” 

And that was a real sort of light bulb moment of like, oh, oh, I guess maybe I– let me sit with that. I don’t have to be so self-contained. And for me, that is the ultimate point of being in a marriage or being in a long term committed relationship. It’s a recognition that I can live my whole, full life, but I’m choosing to live it with this other person because they enhance, they round out, they complement, they support me and my being in a way that I cannot do alone. 

And so then if you’re not able to show up and ask for that, if you’re not willing to do the work to facilitate that, why are you doing it? You can be alone by yourself. So don’t be alone in your relationship.

Kayla: Mm-hmm. That was really, important what you said. And it made me think about some of the stuff that I have, like shared with my audience about, my relationship history. And I talk about how, I used to get involved with emotionally unavailable men and like be upset when they didn’t really give me anything.

But then I had to realize I didn’t have the boundaries in place that I needed to have in order to, so yeah, it’s really a process learning how to kind of articulate what you need and enforce or ask for it. 

Dr. Nikki: Yes. 

Kayla: Do you think there’s anything that stands in the way for black women doing that? Or what would you say is some, maybe some things that contribute to that?

Dr. Nikki: Oh, all the things [Laughs]. Everything, about being a black woman. We are socialized from a very early age to be self sustaining, to be independent, to be successful. It starts early on. I have this theme shows up so much with my clients, my women, my women. That there is this emphasis on your ability to be a good student, because that is tied to your ability to go to college that is tied to your ability to be successful.

That is tied to your ability to produce, to engage in, in the capitalist system. And all of these other parts of yourself, all of your vulnerability, all of your creativity, all of your emotional well-being, all of your interpersonal needs really come in second. ‘Cause as long as you’re performing well, and your, you know, parents and caregivers can talk about your successes, you’re not quote unquote causing trouble. Right? All the other stuff you’re just supposed to kind of figure out on your own. And, and two, in support of like I wanna acknowledge I’m in my late forties. And so I’m gen X I’m of a generation for sure where all of this is brand. And so my mother’s generation, there was no time conversation or consideration for therapy or self-awareness, or like articulating your need. A need?

What is that? Like, what you talking about? And I wanna just acknowledge like, many of us are recipients of folks, of, of, of rearing from folks that didn’t have the tools themselves. And so we are really making this up as we go along. And so you come into adulthood with this whole part of yourself that’s really underdeveloped or that has never really been attended to, where all the messages have been told to you to sort of not take up too much space, but to excel in the space that you are allowed to take up. Not question, You know, having more needs, not putting up boundaries because you’re supposed to be there for other people.

And you’re, if you don’t, then you’re not nurturing or you’re not a woman enough, or you are selfish or you’re, like all of these costs. And there’s very little, if any, energy time space connected to you evolving as a person who has vulnerabilities, who has insecurities, who has just confusion, who gets to make mistakes to try to figure some stuff out. And that be okay, too.

Kayla: Mm-hmm mm-hmm Again, you said some things that kind of touched personally. Specifically when you said, there’s this thing where it’s important for parents or caregivers to be able to brag on you or say what you you’re doing well at, or you just, that just made me think about how I’ve always been cognizant of the fact that my, my mom, she does that she kind of brags on me or kind of boast about certain things I’ve done.

And I don’t think I realized until you said that that there’s a slight sense of pressure I feel to give her something or live up to. ‘Cause with her friends, she says, oh yeah, what, what’s your daughter up to? And my daughter’s up to this or, you know, giving reports about life updates and things. And so there is that pressure to have something positive for them to be able to share with their friends or whatever. 

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. And yeah. 

Kayla: I didn’t even realize that until you said it.

Dr. Nikki: And your experience is, is my experience, is the experience is so many black women that I know. And just think about it this way. Like you probably, if you, if you, reflect back, you probably didn’t hear a lot of your mom talking. other your, or other kids, capacity for relationship or contribution to community or emotional intelligence. But you probably did hear them talk about the kids that’s talking back or who that girl thinks she is or why she out there in those streets. So there’s, that’s where that imbalance shows up as well. And I’m a single parent. I have a 10 year old daughter and we are doing it all different in this household. And I know that it’s different because of how she shows up in the world, that she has boundaries. She’s having issues right now at school ’cause she has boundaries and they don’t know what to do with her. And she’s very clear of like I’ve told, like she’s been having this issue with this little boy who is… she’s been having issues with this little boy and they’ve done some work around having him apologize or whatever, but she told me two weeks ago, she was like, I don’t know that I can trust it.” She said, “I’m just gonna be honest.” She said, “He apologizes, but his behavior doesn’t change. And you’ve told me, Mommy, that that’s what real accountability is. So if he’s just saying the words, I’m sorry, but he still treats me badly then why should I trust him? Why do I need to extend myself to him?” And so the teacher’s looking at me like, “What do you think we should do?”

And I’m looking at her like, “What you mean? She said what… y’all need to figure it out.” He needs to be uncomfortable, ’cause she’s clear about where she stands. And she not gonna move from that point. And I support her in that. But I also recognize that that is a whole new way of parenting. And I’m doing that intentionally because those were skills that I did not have poured into me. And I was reared really with like, my mother is, is one of the matriarchs in our family who shows up at families, everything, and you show up and you accommodate and you make room for and all of that stuff. And so when I tried to exercise boundaries, I was sort of villainized for that. Like, oh, you’re selfish or you shouldn’t do, oh, you only, like, all of this stuff.

And I was like, that don’t feel right. I feel like I just, I’m saying, I don’t feel like it’s, like their feelings of comfort should overshadow my feelings of discomfort. That’s all I feel like I’m saying. And so I am intentionally doing something different with my daughter. And the women that show up in my practice, the women that work with me come because they wanna do something intentionally different for how they show up in all of their relationships. But oftentimes their romantic relationships.

Kayla: Oh, your daughter’s so fortunate to have you.

Dr. Nikki: She’s awesome. And I, she’s… 

Kayla: [Indecipherable] like that.

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. I mean, I, I would tell people all the time that, yeah, parenting is hard. Like it’s, it’s super hard. And my process of raising her is always requiring me to live more in alignment with my values, what I know is true for me. And so I benefit from being her mother, because I can’t ask her to be these things that I know will serve her and I’m not doing them myself. So it’s bidirectional. It works together for us.

Kayla: That’s so sweet. Okay, I wanna circle back ’cause I did have a question. You touched on it, but I wanted to ask specifically, so, back to the responses from the video. And so some of the responses were, I feel like disingenuous because some of them were saying like, oh, how is she a licensed therapist if she is having a hard time seeing black men as human and stuff like that, which obviously wasn’t what you were saying, but what do you attribute those types of that type of reaction to?

Dr. Nikki: Yeah, there is this really worrisome divide I see heterosexual black men and, and women in that, I see it as black men trying to be in alignment with the patriarchy. And all of this conversation that is being had around black women submitting and black men, women needing to be of high value and a high value man.

All of these really, what I call brittle, like they’re very superficial indicators of, of attractiveness, right? Because any, any one of us driving down the road can get in a car accident and become disabled or scarred tomorrow, any one of us could have this economy drop out and we lose our wealth.

Like none of that has anything to do with an individual’s character. And at the end of the day, you should be looking for character. But so there’s so much brittleness around these superficial, these external material standards and characteristics as being attractive. And I think black women are doing their work.

I think black women are doing their healing work and the collective tide is to require men to show up as more evolved, more fully emotionally available, more communicative, more accountable. More emotionally intelligent beings in relationship to women. And they shook. I think they are scared. I think at the core of their sort of vitriol and their lashing out is insecurity. Because the reality is the comments are really variations on one theme and they’re almost predictable that they’re going to happen. I, I will make a post on TikTok about the orgasm gap or black or the using toys in your relationship. Things that I’m not even talking to men about and men will jump in my comments.

Like I wasn’t even talking to you, like, why, why are you, why are your feelings hurt? Like about this? So I, I think that that is, it is worrisome to me. Like I, I see, and there were a couple other black women therapists on TikTok that like was echoing what I was saying. And they they’re like, we’re doing work in our practice where we’re helping women evolve and we’re helping women be more, more aware of what their wants and needs are and helping them articulate and do all of that.

But then where is the partner to help meet them? And unless and until black men start to really collectively do that work, and I don’t wanna hear any foolishness from anybody that listens to this podcast. I’m not vilifying all black men. I know there are wonderful and amazing black men out there. There are wonderful and amazing black fathers. That’s never the argument. But I do ask how many of you are actually talking to the ones that you know could do better? How many of you are ones actually sort of being transparent about what your therapeutic process was like. Being transparent about what your spiritual process has been like. Engaging them in more meaningful conversations. I do take issue with that part. And it is, it, it is just socially acceptable for men to lean into anger and for men to displace blame. And so I see that happening a lot and I want us to find ways to reconcile this gap, Because i, I mean, I, I love black people. I’m, I’m all about black liberation and black sovereignty, and we don’t do that without connection. We don’t do that without family. We don’t do that without community. And so we, we really need to think about how we’re going to repair this rupture and, and get real serious about doing the work.

Kayla: Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah, it’s concerning to me too. And, and as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the men who have created platforms on these types of talking points. And so I’m wondering if you feel like that is, like for example, Kevin Samuels has a million and a half followers, or the guys from the Fresh and Fit podcast were just trending like last week.

And they all have these really misogynoiristic, stances on black women and dating and things like. Do you think that this will have an effect on, do you think they have enough influence for it to impact how you see black men showing up? Or is it just more of the same or maybe not that, that big of a deal? What do you think is the impact of that? 

Dr. Nikki: What I think is that they give, I think they give voice and a platform for black men that are experiencing and interpersonal, intrapersonal, I should say, confusion. And so it gives them language. It justifies their feelings more so than it facilitates them having to do work to reconcile that or hold themselves accountable, or even at like, think about how many black men you know that publicly on the micro or macro level, publicly talk about being insecure. Like I just, I don’t know what I’m doing. I, hmm, sometimes I want to be more fully present in my relationship and I tap into that and there’s not a lot there and that scares me. Even me saying that I loud sounds crazy, but they can get up there and talk about what a woman shouldn’t do, what she should do.

What’s not good enough because the patriarchy supports that. Because we have a, a contract social, social contract that that’s acceptable to do that. And it’s a really interesting, I think, and problematic conundrum is that when women try to push back against that, that just reinforces, they use that as just more data to reinforce their narrative, that black women are out to get black men.

So it just creates this really unfortunate divide. One of the, you know, I think the other part about the podcast and those things is I see a lot of young people engaging with that content.And the influence of social media as a social phenomenon, I think it all comes together to create a really ugly sort of, adversarial, mean-spirited overall approach to looking at each other as men and women. And so I, I I’m hopeful, maybe that things will change in shift. As you get more experiences and you have more maturity, you can start to carve out for yourself what makes sense. But some of these people, I don’t know.

I have a lot of, Kayla, lemme tell you, I have a lot of personal opinions. I think some of these people are closeted, questioning of their sexuality and it’s easy. It’s easy to vilify women. I think a lot of them probably have a deep unresolved attachment issues with their mothers. Maybe even belittled by their fathers.

And so they’re trying to prop up their manhood in a very specific way. And then with the, with the phenomenon of social media where everything is quick, fast, 30 seconds, superficial, no nuance, it just is creating this sort of avalanche of negativity that’s out there.

I say on my TikTok all the time, I don’t know what us gonna do. What us gonna do? Like we, something has to shift cuz this space we’re in right now is just… yes.

Kayla: It’s too much. 

Dr. Nikki: It is. It is.

Kayla: So I wanted to ask on a more positive note about .Black men. So we do have male clients who demonstrate more of these characteristics, like empathy and compassion or emotional intelligence, what do you attribute that to?

Dr. Nikki: That’s a good question. You know what? I hadn’t even really, let me sit and think about that for a second. So most of the men that come to me have come to me for either one or, one or two reasons. The racial stress or trauma that they’re experiencing in the workplace has reached a critical level where it is, in their estimation, significantly impacting their mental health. And so that’s really tied to like, how can I continue to show up in this place of work and not get fired and not catch a case?

I need to do something related to that. And then some of the other, men come in because women in their lives have said, I think this is something you need to look into. And because of that they’ll come in. But we wrestle with these, we wrestle. We talk about patriarchy. We talk about internalized capitalism and I talk, you know, these are concepts that they are working on, but I still hear some of the deeply embedded messages about, what manhood is.

And it tends to be pretty limited. And there’s just, I think, something in their experience where the desire for connection or the desire to not be so distressed or psychologically uncomfortable outweighs the discomfort of looking at these things and talking about them. And it, I, I love my black men clients.

I, I, and I love working with the couples that, that has never been the, the complaint. I just wanted to make a commentary that it it’s a different effort. And where I start with my male clients is different than where I start with my, my women clients. And I, I don’t think my experience in that is, is unique.

Kayla: Mm-hmm, that makes sense.

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. 

So do you notice a difference in the dynamics for queer couples?

Dr. Nikki: To some extent, and then no. So like, we’re all socialized in this same heteronormative framework. Right? And so for, for, queer folks who obviously don’t fit within that frame, they still were raised in, by and large for the clients that I see, they were raised in that framework.

And so there’s a lot of internalized expectations and/or incongruence about what they were told or how they were socialized to be and how they’re living now. And that will show.

Kayla: Mm-hmm

Dr. Nikki: At the end of the day, you know, generally speaking couples are always in some sort of yin and yang around balancing domestic responsibilities and the emotional intimacy dynamic, right? Each of us comes to our relationship with baggage. And so that part shows up. And so what I hear are themes about what disconnects my queer clients from their partners. And let me clarify, all of my queer clients have been women. I think that’s also important to note, but like having experiences of feeling disconnected emotionally or feeling cut off emotionally. I see it on, on both sides.

And, um, that impacting like their sex drive or their sense of intimacy or their sense of psychological safety in the relationship. So I guess the short answer is the overall pattern can be similar, but how it shows up and, and the details look different between my queer couples and hetero.

Kayla: Okay. Gotcha. 

Dr. Nikki: Yeah. 

Kayla: Okay. So switching gears a little bit, talk about sex.

Dr. Nikki: Yes.

Kayla: Can you say more about what you do as a sex self-confidence coach?

Dr. Nikki: Yes. So a lot of, you know, going back to this part of the conversation, we were talking earlier about black women and what I talk about is like their utility. What’s your functionality? What are you contributing? There’s a lot of expectations also that come along either culturally and/or through religious lenses around respectability politics and what’s okay for women as sexual beings. And so then you sort of evolve into adulthood, and there’s this whole part of yourself that you haven’t fully realized or fully fleshed out or even felt like you had permission to explore. And so, oftentimes women who work with me around this stuff, they might even be in relationships. And either their partner is saying, I get, I don’t wanna be the one that’s always initiating, or we used to have sex X number of times a week.

Now I feel like I don’t remember the last time or like, I feel like I’m just, the aggressor and you’re the responder. Or that you don’t even really think about sex unless I bring it up. So those are like really things that I hear over and over and over. Sometimes the women are saying, well, I, I don’t know.

I don’t really, I mean, I don’t mind it. I guess it’s good sometimes. Or I kind of wanna do this, but I don’t know if I’m supposed to say that or when am I– so there’s all of this insecurity and uncertainty about who they’re allowed to be as, as sexual beings, about how to even articulate their sense of pleasure about how to explore that and be playful about that for themselves. And so that’s the work that I do is to talk about what are these internalized negative messages that you have. I talk about like, what is your sexual script? What is the idea that you’ve been told about who is a sexual being, how, what that looks like? And are you in alignment or not, and then what do you want for yourself? And then just engaging in real sort of skills around how to get to that in their relationship with their partner. And sometimes women are not even partner, but they realize like, ah, I got some sexual hang-ups and I have done a lot of other work around these other parts of myself. But I have not talked about this part. I would like to do that, ’cause I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know what I’m doing over here.

Kayla: Okay. So you mentioned, like the pressure to succeed or how black women feel the pressure to succeed. So how does that kind of pressure for success impact black women’s intimate lives?

Dr. Nikki: Yes. One is just straight up exhaustion, fatigue. Black women have been at work, more often than not. The reality is you are working in an environment in which you are a minority. At least as a woman, oftentimes, and definitely as a racial being. And so that you’re navigating all of the stress and politics of microaggressions and false expectations and stereotypes and all the little back-biting and micro-managing all the, all the foolishness that comes along with that in addition to whatever is the regular labor of just doing your job and doing it exceptionally well.

And then this goes back to that sort of emotional and domestic labor piece. Like, still moms being the primary person to get the birthday gifts for folks or to make sure the mother’s day cards have been picked up or hosting dinners. Like all of that stuff adds up. And then the men are like, gimme some.

And she like, boy, I’m trying to get a shower and go to bed. Like what? What you talking about? Like um, and so it creates sort of this experience where I think it just gets further and further from their priorities. And sometimes it can actually, sex can actually look like a chore and, and the intimacy.

And this is why I talk about sex and intimacy. I am not a sex educator, right. There are people that can tell you, do this position, do that stroke it this way or whatever. And all of that is helpful information. I’m glad there’s people like that that are out there. And there’s this whole other psychological side.

And this is where the intimacy and the vulnerability and the sort of inner work come in. And so all of the stuff that happened to get you to the point of being in a long term relationship or being married has to remain central to the relationship as well. And I think what happens is all of those responsibilities and expectations, not only do they take up like literal physical time and space, but they pull you further and further away from doing those things that keep you intimately connected. And unless you have a partner that is wanting to connect with you intentionally on the emotional level, on the intimate level, instead of just running straight to let’s have intercourse, that’s not exciting for the woman, right?

There’s not enough of a, um, like people like to be romanced. People like to be seduced. It matters. And, and so I see that stuff falling off. And if the woman isn’t sort of the steward of happening those things happening, and the men don’t have the emotional IQ or the capacity or skills around that, the divide gets really, really wide. But people just trying to like be successful and have a career and pay bills, you know, it’s not intentional always. A lot of this stuff is sort of the by-product of living an adult life and, and living a sort of middle class professional life. Uh, but, but that’s where my that’s where my stuff comes in. And like, to remind you, like this stuff is really important. Like you’re doing all of those things so that you could have this part of yourself, right? Like they, they need to go together.

Kayla: Perfect. Well, thank you. The last thing that I ask to end the show is that you think of a black woman that’s special to you and tell what you love about her.

Dr. Nikki: Mmm. Oh, I have to think about that. Um, I’m gonna pick my daughter. She’s not a woman, but she’s a girl. She comes to mind, um, most presently. There’s so many black women in my lives that I, I love for different reasons. But, uh, she is just unapologetically herself. She is a star she’s brilliant and she doesn’t feel the need to be arrogant or boastful about it, but she also was not humble either.

Like she is fully confident. She’s joyful and she’s kind. She’s compassionate. And she’s really, really wise, like really wise. And so the things that I take from her are a reminder all the time of like, um, life doesn’t have to be so serious, like, um, and work isn’t everything. And that joy just for the sake of joy, uh, is, is, is valid and important.

And that like living in your true self and authenticity and purpose is not just important for you, but it also reflects that back to the other people around you.

Kayla: I love it. Okay. I know I have to get you outta here. So tell the people where they can find you on the internet.

Dr. Nikki: Yes, you can find me, first of all, you can find me at my website, which is www.dr.nikkiknows.com, D R N I K K I K N O Ws. And you can find me on Twitter and Instagram @drnikkiknows. And then you can find me on TikTok at Dr. Nikki’s sex therapist, D R N I K K I S E X therapist. So those are all the ways you can find me. Please connect with me. I love being able to have conversation and dialogue with folks on my social media platform. So please reach out. And if you’re interested in working with me, you can book a consultation with me on my website.

Kayla: Thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a good conversation.

Dr. Nikki: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I love it. I love it. I love it.